Jesper Ek, a global leadership advisor and a senior strategist for the branding agency Up There, Everywhere, talks with Vanguard Network founder Ken Banta about looking at the world through a leader's eyes.

Jesper tells Ken why he sees leadership as a long-term project that starts with a clear vision and turns on human connection. (His motto is, “nothing starts with results, everything starts with people.”) He also discusses why it’s ok for a leader to ask for help, and tells Ken about leaders he admires. Their exchange was edited for flow and clarity.

Ken Banta: Jesper, let me begin by saying most people think of leadership as a responsibility to deliver results. But when you spoke recently at the Vanguard Forum in London, you made clear that you have a different mindset, at least about how you get there. What is it?

Jesper: I think nothing starts with results, everything starts with people. And leadership, at base is about people. If you can connect with people, great things can happen.

Ken Banta: But how do you measure success by that standard? Because it sounds very pleasant, but not necessarily very results-oriented.

Jesper: Right. First of all, you stick with it—that’s a key thing. If you want to see short-term results, then of course it’s very easy to fall into just measuring KPIs and you start to see some changes. But leadership is about the longer term— you have to measure it more than just a couple of quarters. And as I say it’s all about connecting with people; when you start to see these connections happen, you get something bigger than the parts. And that is when you start to see yourselves moving in the right direction.

Ken Banta: So what you’re saying is at the end of the day, it’s the same measures of performance, but it’s how you achieve them that matters. as well as the timeframe that you measure them in.

Jesper: Exactly. And I also would point out the importance of having a clear vision—not a vision of becoming “best” or a “market leader,” but of where you want your organization to be in the world, in a timeframe that is definitely not months. We’re talking years, 10 years, say.  Of course underneath that, you can operate strategically, day to day. But by thinking longer term and connecting to that greater vision—a vision that’s about an outside-in perspective, about the world you are dreaming about in the future—it allows for extraordinary connections and collaborations. And I think emotional connection is something that leaders today need to be  better at communicating.

Ken Banta: Speaking of the goal or the vision or the sense of purpose, whatever you call it, there’s lots of examples of companies that had a very inspirational vision that actually wasn’t related to what people needed. So how would you see effective leaders deciding what that vision should be in the first place?

Jesper: I think the question, before even stating the vision, is For whom do we exist? Who is your customer or your end-user? And if you have a clear understanding of that, everything else will follow. If you start by asking that question, and then can really understand their situation, their pain points, then then it’s easy to think about the next question: how do we fit in [to the ecosystem, or their lives,] to give that individual or that customer what they need in the future?

Ken Banta: What do you see as the essential qualities that will drive that kind of leadership? What is it that would set apart a leader who can achieve this sort of goal, versus perhaps a more conventional concept of leadership?

Jesper: Well, I think we talk about the board—first of all, you need to connect with the board. I think that’s really important, to get their buy-in to this longer term approach. The phrase I use is, you turn your back on results. You get the okay from the board to not not talk about numbers right now, and instead to talk about bigger issues. In that sense it’s carving out that permission to really turn your back on results and face the people. It’s a starting point.

I think great leaders show their vulnerability in moments like this. I mean they don’t have to have all the answers. It’s okay to ask for help.

But they’re not weak. They’re actually curious, trying to find the answers. And by doing that, they’re also creating an environment where it’s okay to fail. And I think organizations that are obsessively numbers-focused, KPI-focused,  create cultures that are fixated on winning or sort of proving themselves, they lose out because they don’t fail. And if they fail, they don’t share it, so they don’t learn.

Ken Banta: You’ve been talking about leaders in the abstract. Tell me about one or two who actually live up to your expectations of what leaders should be.

Jesper: I mean, on a higher level is Herb Kelleher from Southwest Airlines, whom I never met myself but I have read his books and I’ve also listened to a lot of his talks and I think he was a very humble man. But he was also very very focused and clear in his idea of how he could make airline flying sort of available for everyone. So by having that clear focus on the customer, someone who needs to fly, he was able to create a company that has been successful for 45 years. Never had a negative year. But they also have employees that feel–they have the mandate to be their best selves. And all of this leads to a culture of people who have a sense of joy. It’s fun to work there. It’s just an airline like any other, a cheap airline, even. And yet.

Another example, someone I’ve worked with, is Göran Ando, who was heading up R&D for Pharmacia Corporation when I worked there. And he’s been the head of the board for Novo Nordisk, for example. He’s someone who wants to make things happen, it’s very clear, but he’s also always paid attention to people around him. We have kept contact, although it was 20 years ago that I worked with him. So throughout these years he’s always been interested in how I am, he’s kept connecting definitely. So again, it’s showing that people side is really important, but also then having the ability to make things happen.